Praise God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth! |
I Saw The Light Ministries
An outreach of Ecclesia Theos At Morristown TN,
(called out ones of the supreme divine God)
Serving God in Spirit and in Truth
John 4:23-24
An Open Letter to the "Churches of God" (Splinter groups from the old Worldwide Church of God)
Including (but not limited) to:
United Church of God International Association
Living Church of God
Philadelphia Church of God
Intercontinental Church of God
End Time Assembly of God
End Time Church of God
British-Israel Church of God
Restored Church of God
Born to Win Ministries
And all others.
Dear Brethren,
Praises to the Eternal God for He has blessed us much. He has bestowed to us the truth of many things. It is our high responsibly and honor to carry the Good News of the coming Kingdom of God to all nations. I salute you and hope you had a great Feast of Tabernacles. We are all looking forward to the spring Holy Days and are all in eager anticipation of these end times.
I feel compelled to share with you a few things God has laid on my heart.
We all agree that we are living in the end times.
We all agree that we are about to see things we have never seen before.
We all agree that we have a high calling.
I remind you of what is written in the word of God concerning these end times.
Acts 2:16-20
"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:"
Dear Brethren,
Some within the body of Christ ARE now seeing this out pouring of Gods Spirit!
Some members are now receiving the gifts of the spirit including speaking in tongues AND interpretation of tongues. Immediately some of your ears close shut. While others open.
I ask you to allow God to direct you. I ask you to ASK GOD for the discernment of spirits.
Does not the word of God say to NOT forbid speaking in tongues? 1 Cor. 14:39.
Does not the word of God say "Quench not the Spirit" 1 Thessalonians 5:19
I plead with you to accept Gods will and Gods workings.
Brethren, these are only the beginnings.
I do NOT call for people to roll all over the floor.
I call NOT for Gods people to speak in competition against one another.
I call NOT for confusion in the church.
I do NOT call for the acceptance of the pagan holidays or Sunday worship.
I do NOT call for a falling away from the truth.
I REMIND you of the prophecy of fact that God is going to cause more than just speaking in tongues but also seeing visions and true prophesying. Are we not in the last days? Are we not going to see miracles in these last days? ASK GOD!
Please go into much prayer and fasting, that we accept whatever God does send to us, that our eyes be open, that our hearts be open to God, that our lives be accepting of HIS WILL, that we do not quench anything that God would have us to do, that we be the servants of God not only in words but in deeds and truth but also in Spirit.
If anyone accepts this movement from God, glory not in your gifts, but that your names are written in the Book of Life (Luke 10:20). Think not that God has spoken ONLY to you. God has spoken to MANY of us. His gifts have not been singled out to only one man or one congregation or one organization of man. I praise God that some of you have accepted these latter days of rain. I praise God that more of you will also receive.
For those that have accepted and for those that will accept, I plead that the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues not be your stopping place. Visions are also coming from God. God is going to lead us where He wants to lead us. Be the leaf upon the river that God wants you to be.
I fear that your fear of the Pentecostals will cause some to only go so far along this journey.
Here is where even those that have accepted will no longer accept.
Again, I do NOT call for a change from being Gods true called out ones over to the pentecostal groups. But I do call for Gods people to do the following:
-Come out of Hiding, stop fearing, come out of your closets, open the doors to your meetings.
-Publish your meeting places and times ON YOUR WEBSITE
-Lift up your voices in songs and praise to the wonderful faithful and true God
-Fear not the person next to you, Focus on God
-Be not ashamed of Worshiping God
-ALLOW people to lift their hands to the Almighty
-Allow the servants to kneel on their knees to the Almighty
-Allow the servants to pray out loud to their Maker
-Give time to those members whom God has chosen to give a message, God did not only call the students of Ambassador College (OR other formal education) to the ministry but others as well
-If someone was to lay with their face to the floor, don't throw them outside, allow them to humble themselves as God as called them to do, let the person lay in peace
-Forbid not anyone to come to the gathering (except those that God has clearly shown you to put away), remember that Jesus never turned anyone away, He did not turn away the troubled hearted, He did NOT turn away the sinners. He came not to call the righteous but the sinners. (Matt. 9:13 - ..."I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.")
-Forbid not a person in torn clothes to enter the gates of Gods gatherings
-Forbid not someone just because they are barefoot or shirtless.
I share with you an event that I seen recently. I was in a store when a young shirtless man came into the store. I was already in the check out lane and the woman in front of me was saying how awful and disgusting it was that the man would come into a store shirtless. She did not know the man. She did not know his purpose. She did not know his circumstance. She judged and was even angry. The woman left without ever getting to know what was really happening. Then the young man came to the check out counter to buy a shirt. He did not have a shirt and came into the store to buy one.
Are we to turn someone away because of what they do not yet have?
Would Jesus say to someone at a well, "turn away because you have not water"?
I plead with you, the body of Christ, the servants of the most High,
do not turn away those of the world that would come to Jesus because I also say to you that many homosexuals, wicans, pagans and others will be called by God to come to your assembly to come to Christ, to repent and to be baptized. Fear Not the ones that will come, because they do not come of their own strength but by the calling of our Father. Do not turn such away. Because if you do, you will be turning away the Will of the Father.
And finally brethren,
Be strong in the Lord and in the power of his will, Stand Firm, resist the devil and his ways, resist pride, resist angry, resist judgment and resist the enemy that shall come against you.
Praise God that he has not only given us truth but also spirit and also power over the enemy.
Lay aside the fear that has for so long weighed you down,
Stand Up, Stand Now.
Your brother in Christ,
Tim Carpenter
http://www.isawthelightministries.com
421 Gammon Ave.
Morristown, TN 37814
423-581-5932
Written autumn of 2006
Response from Living Church of God:
"And your point is?"
Response from Intercontinental Church of God AND my response back to them:
Dear Mr. (name withheld),
Thanks for responding to the letter. I know you said a response back is not necessary, but you did ask me questions, therefore a response back is warranted.
"1) You realized that God allowed the splintering and that ONLY GOD CAN BRING THE CHURCHES BACK TOGETHER and this may not be done this side of Christ returning."
YES
"2) Question: Are you one of the splinter groups direct from Worldwide? Did your group leave the apostasy of Worldwide and establish your group or were you part of a group that was part of a group that was part of a group that left Worldwide?"
I started studying Worldwide literature and the Bible when I was 10 years old back in 1978 and started attending with Worldwide around 1984. I left due to my own faults around 1988 and returned several times over the years. I have attended with United a few times since then. I would clasify myself as an indivivual within the body of Christ and a minister of Christ but yes I could be considered one of the splinter groups direct from Worldwide but after the great falling away.
"3) Do you realize that most all of the groups you have listed here will not respond to your open letter?"
Yes, of course. Why would I want to put myself in the line of fire, except that God has called me.
"4) That many of the groups in your short list feel STRONGLY that they are the ONLY true church of God and that all the other splinters, by definition, are fodder for the Lake of Fire?"
Yes, that is what they believe.
"5) Are you aware that at last count that there are some 350 splinter groups, a number of which invoked apostasy themselves?"
Yes
"6) Are you aware that Godly Calling is the HIGHEST SPIRITUAL ELEMENT in the Universe and all true firstfruits must go to their Godly Calling? This calling includes call to repentance, baptism and the laying on of hands and then to a true church God established to do the Work He commissioned."
Yes
"7) All true churches are establshed by God and peopled by God and have their ministries raised by God. Assuming there are more than one true establishment [organizations], then God will raise up ministers out of Church A FOR Church A and raise up ministers out of Church B FOR Church B. In many of the larger groups, there is not cross over of ministry, even on a visiting basis."
Yes, except that if God wants to call someone to minister to more than one group, that He may do so. It's God's work and He will do as He desires.
"8) As to the various organizations: It would be incorrect to say that they are all the same. They may all believe in the Commandments, the Holy Days, the Sabbath and the gospel message, but there are differences in:
Doctrine
Preaching
Teaching
Government and view of authority in the church
Commission (s) --What percentage of effort goes to gospel spreading and what percentage to feeding the flock? Some churches have very low percentages on gospel spreading.
Focus
Organization
Administration
Ministry
Ministerial style
Attitudes
Plans
Fellowship
Infrastructure
Policies at both the HQ and local church level"
Yes, of course.
"Over and above this is something called Godly Calling. We do not make the choice of the church we attend, God DOES. If we are to assume that churches A, B and C are true churches of God, then it must follow that God, Himself (the most powerful being in the Universe) established those churches and is working in and through them to do His Work. This means that He MUST HAVE called the members of those churches to where they are today. God doesn't establish these churches and sit there hoping someone will make a decision to go there. That would be insane. When God call Jonah, who chose the mission and the city? Now we could argue that we have some sort of free choice, after all, Jonah made a choice, didn't he? HE RAN AWAY!!! Did this free choice work?
Therefore, one does not have to investigate these 350+ churches and make an "informed" decision about what church we will attend. We need ONLY respond to our calling...GO WHERE GOD IS CALLING YOU.
James 4:13-15 states that God even decides what city we live. If He is choosing the city we live, is it a stretch to believe He chooses the church He wants you in?"
Agreed.
"9) In regards to your statements about tongues:
You know that tongues is not required for Salvation...right? Even if someone was given the gift of tongues, you do acknowledge that they must be established recognized languages and what is uttered is in praise to God....right? In addition, according to Paul, there must be someone there with an equal gift in knowing the language and translating the language the person with tongues is uttering. Do you understand this?"
YES
"10) Regarding gifts: There are also all kinds of other gifts LIKE HEALING. If you believe that tongues is valid again, do you have anyone over there healing people? If so, I have two deaf men I know that would love a visit from you person healing people. Let me know."
There are indeed people with the gift of healing. I have not yet met one of these people, that does not mean God has not called anyone yet with the gift of healing. But I do know of one true congregation of belivers who has had 16 recent accounts of healings and answered prayer including cancer. In this case, their healings were more likely because of their earnest prayers, fastings and acceptance of the movement of the Holy Spirit.
I will be praying for the two deaf men. And if God wants to heal them, He will heal them. But He will only heal someone who wants healed, asks for it and believes that God will heal. And I believe that God wants to heal people who are willing to worship him and to testify of this.
"11) On the lifting of arms: Are you talking about what the so-called Christian churches are doing in their services, usually during hymns or music? Not only is this vanity and of pagan origin, it is doing alms before men and is fodder for the self-righteous. It is not indicated in the Bible for public displays...even at services"
Yes I am talking about lifting your arms to the Almighty God during services.
How is this vanity? If a person lifts their arms be be seen of men, then yes it is vanity and to be seen of men. But if a person lifts their arms to God to worship God, it is worshiping God. You must look at the intent. You must look at the heart of the matter. There are hundreds of verses in the Bible which speak of shouting, lifting your voice, praising God and worshiping God in public. Just do your research. Here is one to get you started.
Psa 134:2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary, and bless the LORD.
"Ditto tongues and throwing oneself on the floor and praying out loud. We cannot have services where 30 to 1000 people [depending on the size of a local group] are shouting out their prayers all at the same time. Try this at the above listed groups and I suspect the police will be called, mental health officials will be called and/or you would be escorted gently off the property. I would caution you against such behavior."
I agree that most of the listed groups would do exactly that. That doesn't make it right in the eyes of God.
"12) In your reference, "Does not the word of God say "Quench not the Spirit" 1 Thessalonians 5:19." This is speaking to the individual in his or her Salvation Process and not license for shouting and confusion and tongues in services, especially at services where you are not a member."
This is indeed speaking of the individual and each and every individual. IF a person was healed of cancer the night before, would not that persons spirit want to rejoice? Would not that person want to lift their arms to the Almighty God that had just answered their prayers in a mighty way? Did not David even leap and rejoice even in the streets in public despite the fact that he was called a fool for doing so? But He did not do it to be seen of men but because he was leaping in joy to the Lord. Again, you have to look at the intent of the heart.
"13) In your reference, "I call not for confusion in the church." Do you not realize that most of what you are calling for IS CONFUSION?"
I disagree.
"14) In your reference, "I do not call for a falling away from the truth." Who is? However, you do realize a great deal of falling away is going on...right?"
Yes, of course.
"15) In your reference to Joel, you show yourself to lack an understanding of both scripture and prophecy. It speaks of NOT THE END TIME PRIOR TO THE RETURN OF CHRIST but AFTER. Notice three commentaries:
Acts 2:17
[In the last days] The time of the Messiah; and so the phrase was understood among the Jews.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary)
Acts 2:17
[In the last days] Hebrew, Chaldee, Syriac, and Arabic, after these things, or afterward. ----meaning after the end time, after the return of Christ.
(from Barnes' Notes)
Acts 2:17-18
The last days is not found in the prophecy of Joel but was added by Peter under divine inspiration. In the OT this phrase designates the Messianic era of the kingdom of God (Isa 2:2; Hos 3:5). The age of the Gospel is therefore one stage in the realization of the blessings of the Messianic age.
(from The Wycliffe Bible Commentary)
You cannot use Joel to support your idea of end time [time prior to return of Christ] for tongues and gifts and throwing yourself on the floor or praying in public."
Of what use would God have for people to have the gifts of prophecy, vision and dreams AFTER his return?
Wouldn't this be more useful to God and his people during the tribulation and the days leading up to it?
Doesn't the scripture even include part of the timing? "And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:"
Also, if God did pour out his Spirit during the times of the New Testament writings and will do so again some time in the future, why would He leave us without the power of the Holy Spirit in between those times? Didn't He say that He would not leave us comfortless. He indeed did give us His Spirit for this generation as well. What we have been missing is our utilization of the power of this Spirit.
"16) In regards to your statements:
-Come out of Hiding, stop fearing, come out of your closets, open the doors to your meetings.
-Publish your meeting places and times
Our very constitution of the ICG [which is posted on the Internet] is that we are an open door, open arms church and we give out meeting information to anyone who asks. At the bottom of all main pages of our web site we have a link to asking about an ICG church near you: http://www.garnertedarmstrong.ws/istherea.shtml
We have all kinds of local ICG sites that make it easy to contact local hosts or ministers. See our Gateway site: http://www.icgchurches.org/index.shtml
And what is this about "fearing?" Why are you imputing that people are in fear? Fear is counter to the Holy Spirit of God and you really should not be imputing negative emotions on people you do not know and have not met. A true firstfruit in the Salvation Process has no fear."
Indeed the churches do have contact emails and phone numbers to ministers who interview people to see if they are holy enough yet and agree with everything to come to their services. I would hardly call this an open door policy. I have been to enough services within the Worldwide and United to know that there is FEAR within the brethern. Fear of lifting their arms, fear of being disfellowshiped, fear of worshipping God in front of others. This fear is taught.
And yes it is counter to the Holy Spirit. God will not move within your congregations until you release yourself of this fear. You will never see the great miracles of God within you own congregations until you allow your members to worship God freely according to their heart.
"17) In regards to your statement:
-"Give time to those members whom God has chosen to give a message, God did not only call the students of Ambassador College to the ministry but others as well"
Not sure where you have been but the times of ministers coming out of Ambassador College are LONG GONE. Clearly the 350 groups are not getting their ministry from AC grads. Speaking only for the ICG hardly ANY are AC grads. As God states clearly, HE raises up ministers from within the congregation He founded."
Ambassador College may be long gone, but some of the churches continue to believe that ministers must go to their new schools and must have some kind of formal education in order to be a minister. Whereas, God will call whoever He so chooses, formal education or not.
"However, as stated, we, as policy will not and cannot have people coming in from outside the congregation to speak. Such an idea is frought with ALL KINDS OF SPIRITUAL PITFALLS the Word of God warns about.
If God has given YOU a message, preach it where you stand and God will bring you the called ones. There is nothing but God's will from you having 1 million converts by this time next week. Why would you wish to go to these 350 groups [assuming you felt they were all true churches of God] to get your flock? WHY WOULD GOD DO THAT?
Think about it. If I allowed you or anyone to just go to the front of the room during services to speak, wouldn't I have to let hundreds speak? Thousands? EVERYONE? The Pope, Muslim religious leaders, the Arian Movement leaders or the Satanists? How would I know who they are till I heard them speak?
Your suggestion is extremely dangerous and will not be tolerated in 99.99% of all churches in the world....true or false."
First of all, I never asked in this letter to preached to your or anyone elses congregations. The open letter was just a message to all of Gods people in written form. I myself do not expect to be invited or accepted. I'm just the messager of this particular message. IF you don't like the message, take it up with God. As far as me standing where I am and not doing any traveling at all or not writing what God wants me to write, If Jonah was to have taken your advice, Nineveh would not have been spared.
""I could go on and on, as your open letter is full of a lack of spiritual foresight, logic and understanding. Your letter will not produce any positive fruit. I am hoping you understand this."
Actually Sir, God continues to open doors for this ministry and I have received some very positive responses.
"ONLY GOD CAN BRING THE CHURCHES TOGETHER. There is no Biblical indication He will do this prior to the return of Christ."
I never said God would unite the churches. IF He wants to He will, and if He does not want to, He won't.
Sincerely,
(Name withheld)
Minister of Jesus Christ
Probably the only one to respond to your letter.
"PS No need for you to respond."
And in what spirit was that written?
Thanks for your time,
Truly Sincere,
Tim Carpenter
Second series of correspondence between Intercontinental Church of God and myself:
-------Original Message-------
From: (name withheld)
Date: 2/9/2007 1:46:32 PM
To: I Saw The Light Ministries
Subject: Re: Your open letter to the churches
Dear Tim,
Thanks for the reply. I knew that you would. I merely gave you an out if you did not.
I will respond briefly in red below.
Don't believe I have much to say.
(name withheld)
Minister
...: Yes, if God wants to turn the moon to green cheese, He could. Saying that God COULD do something is not to imply or declare He WOULD do something.
We cannot go around declaring that God will soon be turning the moon to green cheese unless we have biblical indication that this is something He has planned. Declaring that an angel appeared to us or a message/voice came from on high will probably not work UNTIL AFTER THE FACT such as we see the account after the fact in the Bible.
If an angel appears to me and informs me that I am one of the two prophesied witnesses, I doubt I would or would be allowed to declare such until I begin my work. The work I would do as one of the two witnesses would be the proof. ANYONE AND I MEAN ANYONE can SAY they are one of the two witnesses. [by the way, I am not one of the two witnesses].
ANYONE can SAY they have a calling but the proof in the calling will be the miracle which makes the elements of that calling happen. Writing a couple of open e-mails, in and of itself, is not proof of a calling. I would ask you, what is the goal or purpose of the calling and then wait to see if that---which you say---happens. That is the biblical instruction in proving a prophet---anyone can be a prophet with a stated calling but the Word of God says to wait and see if what the prophet said comes true.
Response: CLEARLY I have seen thousands healed by prayer. This fact has NOTHING to do with the gift of healing. I am talking about a firstfruit, with the Holy Spirit, in the Body of Christ who is, by a special gift, laying hands on sick, blind, deaf, crippled and INSTANTLY seeing them healed as we saw with Christ and the early apostles. SHOW ME THAT. Send me the guys name.
Saying, "if God wants them healed, they will be healed" is rather trite and even offensive, especially to a firstfruit. Why? Its faith 101. The statement is kinderspeil. A teenager would say, "No duh". At the same time it gives the charlatan plausible deniability. If God has given the gift to someone to heal, there will be massive healings. If it is happening in the Body of Christ, I would know it. Probably the whole world would know it. So, therefore, I need a name of a current firstfruit with this gift. Not someone who lays on hands and prays but someone who lays on hands and people are INSTANTLY healed. Let me know.
...: Clearly this subject has come up before and so have their been people using Ps 134. I noticed that you extracted verse 2 out of the context of this three-verse psalm. Notice our Letter Answering letter on this question as it explains Ps 134 and how you are using bad theology on this subject.
SUBJECT: Services---raising of arms in worship
QUESTION: Is the raising of arms during services appropriate?
ANSWER:
No, it is not.
As to the lifting of the hands that you see in some churches: It is a human gesture that
often generates emotion as if one were making contact with or showing reverence to
God. There is no support for this practice in the scriptures. Further, it seems to go
against the scriptures that talk about practicing your religion before men, that is, letting
other's see how religious you are.
Matt 6:1-7
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have
no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the
hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men.
Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall
reward thee openly.
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray
standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.
Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door,
pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward
thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they
shall be heard for their much speaking.
Matt 6:16-18
16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they
disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They
have their reward.
17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;
18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy
Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.
PSALM 134
Some supporting the raising of arms in services might refer to Psalm 134 or possibly just the second verse take out of context. Notice:
Ps 134
134:1 Behold, bless ye the LORD, all ye servants of the LORD, which by night stand in the house of the LORD.
2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary, and bless the LORD.
3 The LORD that made heaven and earth bless thee out of Zion.
Who is being spoken of here?
When is the raising of arms being done?
Who by?
Where is the greater congregation when this is being done?
Notice the commentary…
Ps 134:1
[All ye servants of the LORD] The priests or ministers of religion, appointed especially to this service.
[Which by night stand in the house of the LORD] There was a class of singers in the temple who devoted the night, or a part of the night, to praise; and it is possible that this service may have been, as it was subsequently in some of the monasteries, continued by succeeding choirs, during the entire night. Thus in 1 Chron 9:33, it is said, "And these are the singers, chief of the fathers of the Levites, who remaining in the chambers were free, for they were employed in that work day and night." This class is particularly addressed in this psalm, as if they were especially favored, or as if they especially possessed the ear of God in the silence of the night, and when the world slumbered around them. There is something favorable to devotion in the silence of the night; when the world sleeps; when we are alone with God; when it seems as if God would more particularly attend to our cry since the rest of the world is still, and does not (as it were) need his care. All this may be fancy; but the effect may be to make the mind more solemn, and better suited for devotion.
(from Barnes' Notes)
Ps 134:2
Lift up your hands in the sanctuary, and bless the LORD.
[Lift up your hands in the sanctuary] Margin, In holiness. The Hebrew word properly means holiness, but it may be applied to a holy place. See Ps 20:2. The lifting up of the hands is properly expressive of prayer, but the phrase may be used to denote praise or worship in general.
[And bless the LORD] In the night-watches-while all around is still,-let there be one place where the voice of praise shall ascend on high.
(from Barnes' Notes)
We see clearly that this is taking place at night.
We see clearly that this is being done by priests or ministers of religion appointed to this service.
We see clearly that this was quiet time and that the greater congregation was home asleep.
We see clearly that this is properly an expression of prayer, something we know is done in PRIVATE.
Do a search throughout the Bible where a lifting of hands is mentioned. There are five [three more in Psalms and two in Lamentations]. In each, the person is alone, it is night or the expression is figurative, as in lifting one’s heart in his hands before the Lord (Lam. 3:40).
Therefore, if you wish to literally raise your arms before God, do it alone in your private place of prayer.
---END---
...: The second sentence here is another trite response....a blowing off of the churches to make your position righteous. Are you saying you want 30-1000 people throwing themselves on the floor at church?
Do you want the right to enter any church of God and throw yourself on the floor and spouting tongues?
...: As shown above, the prayers of thanks and arm-lifting and other such behavior should be done in private, according to the Word of God. In addition, and just as a side comment, I am not seeing massive numbers of people in God's church being healed of deadly diseases like cancer. Therefore I not sure how much joy we are talking about on that single point [healings from cancer].
Yes, David was called a fool. That was a specific instance and HARDLY a basis of condoning such behavior in the Church of God. Again, rather bad theology. Elijah, a rather holy guy as biblical guys go, took 450 prophets of Baal down by the Brook Kishon and killed them. Should we in the church be doing this today? After all, Elijah did? See the bad theology? You cannot use the instance of David, taken out of context again to support something the Bible does NOT support. The pagans and false Christians do it to bring emotion where the Holy Spirit is not present.
You will find out quickly that I have little tolerance for bad theology.
"13) In your reference, "I call not for confusion in the church." Do you not realize that most of what you are calling for IS CONFUSION?"
I disagree.
Response: Bad theology IS confusion.
Response: Interesting reasoning but clearly such items will be present in the 1,000 year reign of Christ.
What you need to do here is show biblically how Joel is talking about a period BEFORE the return of Christ. I showed you clearly that it is about AFTER THE RETURN OF CHRIST.
...: Read your response again. Are you not imputing both motive and procedure here on the ICG. I told you that the ICG is an open-door, open-arms church. We do not interview people prior to their coming to church. We do not interview or question or text them after they come to church. I cannot speak to what you may or may not have seen in other churches. I can only speak for the ICG and we do not use FEAR. Fear is not indicated as a procedure or tactic or element for the church. FEAR is ANTI-GOD and ANTI-WORD OF GOD, as far as the church organization, membership and ministry is concerned. WHY? Because we know and teach that each member of the Body of Christ [called to the Salvation Process] stands ALONE in that process with Christ and God the Father by the power of the Holy Spirit. If there is a church using Fear, they are in ERROR---------------GROSS ERROR. The only fear one needs is them alone before God...."work out your OWN salvation with fear and trembling". See http://www.icgchurches.org/Seattle_WA/Sermon_Text/sermontext_20.shtml Phil 2:12 DOES mean fear and real trembling but ALONE before God and not in the workings of the church or ministry or congregation or its activities.
...: This may be but not with the ICG. My Bible says that God places the people in the ministry and other duty positions. He provides the ministers. I am a minister---never at AC and college training only in Library Science. Doubt the apostles had any college or AC.
By the way, what groups out there have AC-type schools? Doubt United could afford that.
...: First the sentence "if you don't like the message, take it up with God" is another trite, offensive and self-serving communication. You are declaring you are the righteous one and the hearer has a problem. You are saying that if you are NOT accepted or invited that the hearer will be tossed in the lake of fire for denying a messenger of God.
If you read the Bible, you will see that if I reject your message as being false I HARDLY have to take it up with God. If I were in error, He might take it up with me, but in the general application, if the message is not of God, one merely rejects it.
I do not take up the false messages of the Catholic church with God. I merely reject them. Ditto every one who contacts me at this office with their THOUSANDS of messages from God. You are not alone in your "calling". Beside in Holy Message giving, the messenger is hardly a focus. If your message is HOLY, the Holy Spirit in me will impart it to me REGARDLESS OF THE INSTRUMENT OF THE IMPARTING OF THAT HOLY MESSAGE. That is, IF God chose you to offer a message to the 350 groups, YOU are the least element of that Work.
My response back to ICG:
Thanks (name withheld) for your response and thanks for the opportunity you gave me to opt out. I'm still glad that I did not opt out. I salute you for your knowledge of scripture and issues. We both could obviously go back and forth for years to come but we both know we are not or should not be in competition against one another. We disagree on certain issues of course.
I agree that "the proof in the calling will be the miracle which makes the elements of that calling happen. Writing a couple of open e-mails, in and of itself, is not proof of a calling. I would ask you, what is the goal or purpose of the calling and then wait to see if that---which you say---happens. That is the biblical instruction in proving a prophet---anyone can be a prophet with a stated calling but the Word of God says to wait and see if what the prophet said comes true".
Therefore, I would have to answer that my calling is to announce that we are entering a time when God is going to start working great miracles, a time of both spiritual renewal and also tribulation. This season has began but will intensify this year and next year. Whether the "great tribulation" of 3 and a half years will start this year or next year, I do not know. A minister friend of mine was given a message through interpretation of tongues that the anti-Christ would rise in 2008 and overthrow 3 countries. That was given to him, not me, but I stand behind him in support of this phophecy which time will tell whether it be true or false.
My calling is to encourage people to pray more, fast more and accept whatever God has to bring to our attention. I do not consider myself a prophet and also do not claim to be one of the two witnesses. I also am called to help people come out of the extreme darkness of witchcraft and satanism. So, I would greatly appreciate your prayers for that part of this ministry.
Thanks again for your time,
Tim
After that, the ICG minister responded back with a lot of scriptures and articles on the topics of "ministry", "prophets", etc. Continuing to try to cast doubt on my calling. Notice that I never attacked or doubted his personal calling as a minister has He had done me. Each of his responses were very quick leaving little or no room for fasting or prayer before he would answer back with mostly preprogrammed notes from his computer. Each of my responses were delayed because I knew I needed to see what God would have me do. I did not bother to reply back after the above mentioned last response. His mind was closed and I did not feel any need to prove my calling to him. Also, his statement that there are NO interviews for a person to attend with the ICG are absolutely false. They do not call it an interview, but you are questioned as to where you found out about them, what you believe, what's your background, what churches have you attended, etc. Then you are either given approval or denial to attend. I call that an interview. Meeting times and locations should be published on their website, this is what GOD wants. But anyways, The very next morning, Sunday Feb.11, 2007 at 4:40am, the following message from God was relayed to me via a minister on a radio program. These were the first words I heard that morning on that radio:
"First of all he says, “lifting up holy hands.” Automatically we all get excited about what this means. Is it okay to lift up holy hands? As I studied the passage, the thing that caught my attention was not the lifting part, but the holy hands part. It’s quite a different approach to studying it, by the way. It’s not just whether we should lift or not lift; it says right there we lift holy hands. But what are “holy hands”? What do they look like?
The word literally means “unpolluted.” They are not defiled hands. Somehow we’re praying to God, so there perhaps is a metaphorical aspect extended in the lifting of hands that says, “I’m coming to You not as a polluted, unforgiven sinner, but as a person who has a right to pray because I have been forgiven of my sins. I have been cleansed by Christ’s work.”
A number of passages where we read about lifting hands … Listen to 1 Kings 8:22: “Solomon stood before the altar of the Lord in the presence of all the assembly of Israel and spread out his hands toward heaven.” Ezra 9:5–5: “At the evening offering I arose from my humiliation, even with my garment and my robe torn.” The confession of sin, the tearing of the garment, the ash to show the humiliation, the humility of sinfulness and its effect—after that, “I arose.” Then he says, “I fell on my knees and stretched out my hands to the Lord my God; and I said, ‘O my God, I am ashamed and embarrassed to lift up my face to You, my God, for our iniquities have risen above our heads.’” What a picture! I can’t lift my head up because there’s so much sin above me to even look to You. It’s in the way, we might say. “For our iniquities have risen above our heads and our guilt has grown even to the heavens.” So the prostrate prayer of humiliation and repentance, and we would imply asking God to forgive, and then to come to his knees and sort of keep his head down in some fashion—again, how you determine it—but he can’t even look up. Holy hands.
Have you had a hard time looking up to heaven because of your sin lately?
Psalm 28:2: “Hear the voice of my supplications when I cry to You for help, when I lift up my hands toward Your holy sanctuary.” Here the psalmist is saying, “Listen to me. I’m coming to worship and pray. Listen to me. Please hear me when I lift up unpolluted hands in worship to You.”
I cannot explain away the bodily posture of the prayer. I don’t think there is anything wrong with raising your hands when you’re praying to God. I don’t think there is any pressure to do it either. I think the issue is unpolluted—that we’re lifting up holy hands when we pray." END of what I heard on Radio.
It is very evident to me that this was a confirmation from God that it is okay to lift up hands to God to worship him, whether someone else is in the room or not as long as our heart is in the right place and intent. I looked at 1 Kings 8 and it says
:22 "And Solomon stood before the altar of the Lord in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven."
Then in verses 23-53 He prayed.
Then in verse 54 says "And it was so, that when Solomon had made an end of praying all this prayer and supplication unto the Lord, he arose from before th altar of the Lord, from kneeling on his knees with his hands spread up to heaven."
:55 "And he stood, and blessed all the congregation of Israel with a loud voice, saying,"
Now, I know that one of the many things the ICG minister would say about this is that it was Solomon, a servant, a minister that did it and that it wasn't a lay member and also that just because Solomon did it doesn't mean we should do it. But we of course know that yes we can use the examples of righteous biblical people to see what is acceptable behavior AND that we are ALL servants of the Lord, especially now in New Testament times.
Also, as confirmation from the Lord, during the Sabbath, it was testified to me by one of the local congregation members that she was being brought by the Lord into a better understanding of the Holy Spirit. She did not know anything about the Open Letter and my correspondence with the ICG. Brethren, do not allow yourselves to be controlled by any minister FORBIDDING you to express your love toward God!
Sunday night, another confirmation from the Lord!
The last few days, 1 Timothy 2 has been coming at me from all directions, then tonight it hits me again. I was just turning the television stations trying to find something on to watch and there is Charles Stanley at exactly 8:05pm reading 1 Timothy 2. Included in this scripture is verse 8 "I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting". Wesley commentary: "1Ti 2:8 - I will - A word strongly expressing his apostolical authority. Therefore - This particle connects 1Ti_2:8 with 1Ti_2:1. That men pray in every place - Public and private. Wherever men are, there prayer should be. Lifting up holy hands - Pure from all known sin."
God continues to confirm His Will, that we praise Him, for He is worthy of all our praises and more! Some are accepting this truth! Praise the most glorious Lord! He is so wonderful! By the way, Yes I am the LEAST element of this work, I'm a chief sinner but yet preordained by God, ordained by God, not men. I'm a new creature in Christ. But I am just an ordinary person serving an extraordinary God! Note: To all those who continue to say that there will be no positive fruit from this open letter, I can testify that this is God's work, not mine and anything He does, will produce good fruit as I have seen. He is preparing us. Let's allow Him to prepare us. The days are grower shorter by the minute. Let's not be like the Laodica church of Rev. 3 who says that she has need of nothing, We all have need of further revelation from God! Let's be accepting of what HE wants us to learn and grow to be what He wants us to be. God be with you all! Amen.
Update: Aug.15, 2007
Act 3:1 Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour.
If any of the COG people were to call a hour of prayer they would not allow anything other than silent prayer but look what happens here
Notice this is in the temple
Act 3:2 And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple;
Act 3:3 Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.
Act 3:4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.
Act 3:5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.
Act 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Act 3:7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
Act 3:8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
This man was on fire for the Lord! He was excited and was leeping inside the temple. Some of you would carry him out of the temple and disfellowship him. But no person here did so!
Act 3:9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:
Act 3:10 And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.
Act 3:11 And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.
Act 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
Act 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Act 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
Act 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
Act 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Act 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Some of you would say Yes only if God healed by miracles. LOL. I tell you God is still alive!
Update: Sept.25, 2007
Quote from original letter:"Again, I do NOT call for a change from being Gods true called out ones over to the pentecostal groups." Concerning that statement, I still do NOT call for the former WCG people to accept the pagan worships of Sunday, Christmas, Easter and so forth. God doesn't want us to be Baptist, Pentecostal or ANY of mans denominations. However, He does want who we call the "Pentecostal" peoples and the "former WCG" peoples to meet in the middle. We are BOTH His People! He is building a bridge for BOTH groups to meet in the middle and be HIS People, not pentecostal, not mans religions, not what ever you call your church or organization, but rather to just be HIS people! And this includes both law and Spirit. Serve Him in Truth and in Spirit. The Spirit and Truth Agree. They are in unity. Most of you are missing Faith. The minister of the Living Church of God said to let him know if I find a man with the gift of healing. Well I could write and tell him where to find such a man. But since this living church of god organizational minister does NOT have Faith, I won't waste my time. But I will let you know that if you have faith, to visit one of the crusades of Leroy Jenkins. Please see My Testimony and Miracles sections.
Update 11-04-2007:
1 Cor. 14:25 "...so falling down on his face he will worship God and report that God is in you of a truth." context=people together in service, psalms, tongues, prophecies, etc.
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